There’s been a strong reaction among fansubbers to Paul “Otaking” Johnson’s “The Rise and Fall of Anime Fansubs” video.
In his video he discusses what’s wrong with modern anime fansubs and the future of subtitles in general. But why make a documentary to vent the pain? Paul was gracious enough to discuss with me his history with anime, his love of translation and just why current fansubs inspired him to create the video to begin with…
Interview With Paul “Otaking” Johnson
Rachel: How long have you been an anime fan?
Paul: Since the late 80s. Though at the time, I didn’t realize it was anime I was watching. My favourite shows here in the UK in the 80s were Ulysses 31, The Mysterious Cities of Gold, etc…all of which looked suspiciously much better than any other “cartoons” on TV at the time.
Later on, I learned the reason why: that they’d been drawn and animated in Japan. When I saw Transformers: The Movie, my eyes almost fell from my skull in shock (it’s not every day you get to see a hand-drawn and beautifully shaded planet torn apart in graphic detail). My interest was peaked. It was when BBC 2 aired Akira in the mid 90s that I became a full-blown otaku. And when I saw the legendary Otaku no Video, I vowed to become the English OtaKing.
Rachel: How does your interest in anime tie into your interest in translating?
Paul:Anime, being in Japanese, is incredibly fun to translate into English. Localisation is extremely challenging and rewarding, and finding a funny pun in English that keeps the same feel as the Japanese one is often like hearing the victory music from Final Fantasy 7 in your head. As a viewer of early subtitles (a special mention must go to Animeigo’s subs of Bubblegum Crisis and Kiseki’s Otaku no Video subs), I like to think I’ve been influenced by the best. Plus I have a passion for what I translate, which always helps.
Part One of “The Rise and Fall of Anime Fansubs”
Rachel: What got you into becoming a professional translator?
Paul:Well, after working at McDonald’s for 4 years, I finally decided to throw off my McDonald’s tie (as in Otaku no Video) and go totally otaku. After doing the University of Sheffield’s Japanese course for 4 years (with one year in Japan) and then an MA in Translation Studies, the path was open to start contacting companies and getting my name out there. Being part of an industry you love is a nice thing…though competition is fierce and often you’ll have to translate boring legal documents just to make enough money to eat.
Rachel: How long have you been a pro translator?
Paul:Around five years now, though I was moonlighting a little whilst still technically on my Japanese course.
Rachel: What projects have you worked on?
Paul:Unfortunately, non-disclosure clauses prevent me from naming titles until they’re on the shelves. I’ve translated several light novels for Del Rey and others, now, and the first one I did (ages ago now) STILL isn’t on the shelves, so a large portion of my name-dropping isn’t allowed unless I want to get sued!
In terms of games, I can say that I worked on in-game text for Half Life 2: Survivor (the Japanese arcade game based on the PC version), a great many instruction manuals featuring a certain Italian plumber and a guy in a pointy green hat, and quite a few press releases for Hudson Soft (Bomberman and the like).
Sadly I haven’t been involved with, say, Silent Hill (a personal favourite), but maybe someday in the future, eh? My pet project would have to be Namco X Capcom, but it seems unlikely that will ever be released in English. Recently, the DS has been kind to me, with many jobs translating games on that platform. A good agency-translator relationship is a must, and for that I’m glad to be working with the Spanish company Localsoft, who really go out of their way to provide me with all the research material and in-game terminology I need, as well as big-ass .pdfs of all manuals, etc.
Rachel: You speak of older fansubs with respect, and maybe a bit of admiration. What work, if any, have you done on fansubs?
Part Two of “The Rise and Fall of Anime Fansubs”
Paul:Well, technically they’re illegal so I’ve never done anything substantial. I did help produce a rather nice fansub of Berserk to show at the Sheffield Anime Society though, but that was an exclusive that nobody has save one guy in Japan. I remember spending up to fifteen minutes arguing with my pro translator friend (the aforementioned guy) about how we needed to get the line “yonder knight!” in there.
Masterpiece lines included “Split the very sod if it you have to!” as a translation of “look everywhere to find him.” Fansubbers really are missing out on a lot of fun localization by insisting on leaving everything in literal Japanese. There’s a lot you can do in English that you can’t in Japanese (particularly with insults and sarcasm).
Rachel: Can you describe what precisely spurred you to create your documentary?
Paul:Anger, rage, hatred and more rage. My housemate was watching that awful Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei sub that I used in my video at the time, and that was the last straw. It was either make the video or throw myself from the Tower of London. I think most fansubbers would prefer if I’d done the latter. And ever since God of War, throwing yourself off large structures is a bit of a cliche anyway…
Rachel: Anger, hatred and rage…but what did your love of anime have do with it, or was it just the rage? Surely there was some love, albeit it tough love….
Paul: It’s because I love anime (well, not so much the modern stuff, but that’s a story for another day) that I hate seeing it ruined by shoddy translations. If fansubs had looked like they do now back in the early 90s, I wouldn’t have been able to understand what was going on and would have dropped the whole “anime” thing out of sheer frustration. Is it such a terrible thing to enjoy anime because of the story, characters and art? Apparently it is, because nowadays you need to love and have a reverential worship of Japanese language and culture to be allowed in.
You have to translate properly into English if you want new people to get into anime too… and what with “pro” DVD companies starting to follow modern fansub methods of leaving things in Japanese and refusing to translate cultural terms, I think that it’s going to be harder and harder for new people to discover anime without feeling excluded from some kind of “clique.” Of course, they can watch the dubs on TV, yes. But there’s one problem with that…The dubs are mostly utterly appalling in terms of voice talent (again, inexcusable when such dubs as Metal Gear and many Streamline Pictures and early Manga ENT. dubs show good dubs are possible.
Manga’s expletive-filled dub of Cyber City Oedo 808 is still one of my favourite dubs of all time!) and the shows as they appear on today’s mainstream TV (One Piece, Dragonball, etc) are so heavily edited they bear little resemblance to the original source matter. I remember well how Cartoon Network re-drew all of the pistols and revolvers in Outlaw Star so that the characters were holding cheesy, non-lethal “ray guns” instead. Or how Dragonball characters were “sent to another dimension” when in the Japanese version script they were dead.
Part three of “The Rise and Fall of Anime Fansubs”
Rachel: Why did you make it and what were you trying to accomplish?
Paul:Well, I never intended anyone to listen, to be honest. Fansubbers and modern anime fans are a cliquey lot who love their magical Japanese language, so I very much doubted anyone would change their ways just because I was presenting some arguments backed by mere academic research and fact. The reason I made it as a video, however, is that a picture paints a thousand words and I could hopefully show some professionalism by getting some hand-drawn animation in there. Although I think we all agree most people would have picked Starscream on the “Narrator Select” screen instead of my whiney, annoying voice.
Rachel: If you got through to some fansubbers with this video, and they reached out to you, how would you be willing to help them, or would you?
Paul: I’d happily put together some kind of article detailing tricky translation issues and how translators of video games/anime in the past have gotten around them. Though, as I’ve said in a number of posts, the best way is probably just to have a go on Snatcher on the Sega CD and see how that was translated. With emulation being what it is, it’s quite easy to contrast both the Japanese and English versions side by side on your basic PC, and experience for yourself how they went about it.
The translation is pretty much a work of art. For full-on localisation (and I’m in two minds about this one, because I think changing character names and countries is a step too far) then Phoenix Wright on the DS gives you all the examples you’d need to get around cultural in-jokes and render them into funny English equivalents.
Rachel: Your video raised much ire in the fansubbing and anime communities. How do you feel your message will get through with that kind of response?
Paul: I think this actual posted response about sums most of it up:
“FUCK YOU, you elitist nazi attention whore faggot, and enjoy your shitsucks old shows in video format with crappy subs. Otaking? Sounds more like Otacunt to me. Also, most fansubs are mach better then what you show. You have only showed the worst ones, which I can count on one hand, you retarded faggot.”
Actually, though, it’s not been that bad. This barely literate specimen was definitely in the minority. I’ve had quite a surprising amount of people agree with my points, and some very civil conversations via Youtube. One guy even said that he is a fansubber and my video has made him think twice about the way he’ll translate in the future.
On the whole, though, I’ve found on many forums, such as Animesuki and Kaizoku-Fansubs, that any opinion voiced in defence of my video is immediately labeled a “troll” and told to shut up. Nobody likes being told they’re wrong, after all, and I don’t expect my video will change a thing. I had to make it, though, or I would have exploded from pent up rage and taken half my house with me. The landlord wouldn’t have been too pleased.
Part four of “The Rise and Fall of Anime Fansubs”
Rachel: You cite many quotes from famous translators on the subject of translating. How do you feel their words as professionals translating literature and film some ten, twenty years ago, are relevant to younger people translating anime for free on their laptops?
Paul:Basically, good schools of thought never get old and this is a translation debate that’s raged since bible translation times whilst still being relevant today. One half thinks the original language is so great that you need to leave it all in the original format, and the other side says that defeats the point of translation, and wants to actually translate it into the target language. As an English translator, I follow Eugene Nida’s school, called “dynamic equivalence” that actually wants to translate Japanese anime, manga and games into English.
Famous examples of this method (and its relevance to today’s market) are games like Phoenix Wright, where all the jokes and puns are expertly localised, or games like the legendary Snatcher on the Sega CD, which is arguably one of the best translations of all time, done by Jeremy Blaustein who then went on to translate Metal Gear Solid into English. And we all know how good and well-received by the gaming press that script was.
Another fine example of dynamic equivalence is Dark Horse’s early manga translations. They’d flip them left to right, English style, they’d convert all honorifics and Japanese terms to English, and do a top class job. Their translations of Appleseed, Dominion and Ghost in the Shell were magnificent, and precisely what got me into reading manga. Totally localised into perfect English, making it a seamless read, whilst losing none of the original plot, story or character names.
Studio Proteus‘ translation of Shirow’s INTRON DEPOT is a flawless masterpiece, perfectly indicative of dynamic equivalence. All of Shirow’s comments are rendered into perfectly conversational English, slang included. If you check it against the Japanese that Shirow actually wrote, it keeps the tone perfectly. The amount of creative thought that must have gone into it is staggering. Modern fansubbers would hate it.
The other school – the one most fansubbers follow – is called “formal equivalence,” and it believes that if you change any of the source text, you lose the meaning and ruin it. Which is why fansubbers leave in honorifics, put everything in Japanese name order and produce incredible lines like the famous “Inawari Shiro’s Kame Hime-sama has sent the meat if a renowned Bushi from Izumo no Kuni for you to enjoy.” Faithful to the Japanese? Yes. Intelligible? Not even slightly.
Ironically, though, these same people enjoy Metal Gear Solid and its translation.
Part five of “The Rise and Fall of Anime Fansubs”
Rachel: What rules, if any, should these volunteers follow and why?
Paul:Definitely the rules of dynamic equivalence, which states that we, as translators, translate MEANING and not WORDS. So what if “onee-sama” has no English equivalent? Get rid of it, and make the difference in status between the two speakers apparent in other ways. The most basic rule of dynamic translation is that the finished product should sound like a natural read in English.
Lines like (as shown in my video) “For your exam…Do your best!” are not a natural read. They’re sticking to the Japanese word order and producing a clumsy mess that can only appeal to a cliquey Wapanese faction. I’m not for one moment saying that Japanese names like “Hiro Tanaka” should be changed to “Brad Spangler,” but what’s wrong with writing “rice balls” instead of “onigiri?” To most fansubbers, that would be tantamount to sacrilege.
To someone who just wants to enjoy the show, it’s plain, common sense. If the viewer has to pause the show to read a long-winded cultural note at the top of the screen explaining that “sensei” means “teacher” in Japanese, then they have failed as a translator and should hang their heads in abject shame. With enough imagination, most Japanese words can be rendered in English. And those that can’t can be gotten around in other ways that are maybe too long-winded to talk about here…
Rachel:Why should they adhere to professionalism when they’re not getting paid as professionals do?
Paul: Fansubs in the past were also free, but it didn’t stop them from translating properly, and in many cases they were better than the official DVD releases (when the official releases eventually came out, that is). Yes, some early fansub groups paid to get them translated (even more proof of dedication to the task, if you ask me), but anyone who says that evrey single 80s and 90s fansub group was paying professional translators to sub their favourite shows is clearly deluded.
Also, as I said, early fansubs were often better than the official subtitles. As has been mentioned on several forums, the OFFICIAL DVD subtitle of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya has Kyon stating “I have a ponytail moe.”
If, as a young kid, I’d bought an official DVD to be met with a translation like that, I wouldn’t know what to think. “What the hell is a moe?” “Why do all the characters have the same surname – san???” You can see the problem when the fansub method is infecting the big companies who really, really should be setting a better example. “I have a ponytail moe” is not English, and it’s the kind of translation a professional DVD company should be ashamed of. Flip the DVD over and what does it say? “English subtitles.” “I have a ponytail moe” makes a mockery of that claim. And that’s just one example of how “fansub-like” many official DVD subtitles are becoming.
If a job’s worth doing, it’s worth doing well. My video was free and I got paid nothing, but it didn’t stop me researching translation theory for a year or hand drawing and animating the cut scenes just to grab people’s attention (they certainly wouldn’t stick around for my voice, that’s for sure!).
Also, the cancer that is honorifics and screen cluttering cultural notes is starting to infect “professional” manga releases too. Manga in English nowadays is printed Japanese-style, ensuring maximum difficulty for new fans to get into reading it, and this is part of the whole “let’s all be one big Japanese-speaking club” disease perpetuated in no small part by many modern fansubs.
I believe strongly that fansub groups (not all, as I’ve heard it said that there are still some good ones out there who translate properly) need to take a long look at how fansubs used to be done, drop the flashy effects, eat a few slices of humble pie and stop trying to make themselves bigger than the shows that they’d be nothing without. And everyone, without question, should go and read how Dark Horse translated the original Ghost in the Shell manga in the 90s, because it’s a paragon of how Japanese-English translation should be.
Rachel: How do you think the fact that more and more anime are being licensed, impacts the state of fansubbing?
Paul: Well, my main concern here is that the cancer that is honorifics and screen cluttering cultural notes, so beloved by lazy fansubbers, is starting to infect “professional” DVD releases too. This is a massive concern, as several “professional” DVD companies and manga/novel publishers are now leaving in honorifics and cultural notes instead of DOING THEIR JOBS and translating.
More anime being licensed can only be a good thing, but the amount of fly-by-night “let’s jump on the anime bandwagon” companies that are springing up is worrying to say the least. Their translations are practically on par with the worst fansub examples highlighted in my video. Even the once-great Dark Horse is re-releasing their already perfect English translation of Ghost in the Shell, only flipped to appeal to the Wapanese purists and, no doubt, filled with freshly inserted honorifics and notes (I pray to heaven that this isn’t the case). If it is, I’ll have to take down my thirty foot golden statue of Toren Smith,
Rachel: What would you say in your opinion are the main reasons people produce fansubs, contrasting them with the fansubbers from the early days and the present?
Paul: Essentially, fansubs used to be a noble cause. As the video says, it cost a lot of time and money and effort, and they fansubbed because the shows would never see the light of day otherwise, AND because they loved the shows so much they wanted everyone to see them.
Nowadays, it’s all about seeing which group can get the latest episode of Gundam out three seconds ahead of each other, and which group can do the flashiest, most obtrusive and distracting karaoke special effects.
Basically, it’s internet phallus-waving, and I find it disgusting. It should be about the anime, not the egotistical fansubbers who give themselves names like “samurai^pwn-master-sama or “ninjaX-box kid666.”
Rachel: Why do you think fansubs have evolved (or devolved) into some of the examples you give in your video?
Paul: See the above answer. It’s all about competition and ego-stroking now. To “pwn” the competition, fansub groups feel they must clutter the screen with flashing karaoke font and bouncing special attack names that fly across the screen whenever someone launches a punch.
Also, the “cult of weeaboos” has grown to such an extent that modern anime viewers demand a Japanese language lesson with each episode they download. We’re talking people who actually use words like “baka” and “san” in with their everyday conversations at the mall. The fact that anime was never meant to be a Japanese language learning lesson never crosses their minds. I’ve heard mention of fansub groups being flamed because they didn’t include large amounts of cultural notes explaining every little word or Japanese term.
Rachel: What do you say to fans who watch fansubs for the culture “lessons”? How much a part of the problem are they since they insist on all these bells and whistles?
Paul: In short, if you insist on massive amounts of explanation notes and watch anime because it “teaches you Japanese”, then go take a Japanese class instead and leave the rest of us, who just want to enjoy the show, in peace. Anime isn’t for learning Japanese – it’s for watching and enjoying. People like that are holding back fansubbers from producing legible, solid translations in actual straightforward English.
PLUS… if you spoke anime-Japanese for real in Japan, people would think you were insane. It’s not how people really talk there. Japanese people don’t really say “dattebayo” in conversation and “koko wa kisama no hakaba da!” when they’re having a fight in a bar. People who insist on Japanese lessons at the expense of watching the actual show are, in my opinion, being very disrespectful to the staff who sweated to create the anime and meet the strict, backbreaking deadlines. The directors did NOT intend their shows to be watched with three lines of notes covering their art in order to explain what a “nakama-doushi” means to a bunch of “Wapanese” wannabes.
Rachel: How fair are the examples in the video of the current state of fansubs?
Paul:Well, many of the comments I received criticized the video for deliberately picking the worst examples but, to be perfectly honest, I just grabbed a random batch of fansubs and that’s what I ended up with.
As I said before, I’m a professional translator so I’m not in with the fansub “scene” and don’t know which groups are supposedly good or bad, so I just grabbed what I could and took it from there. I really didn’t have the time (nor the inclination) to hand-pick bad examples just to prove my point.
I’m sure there are better fansubs than the ones shown in my video. At least, I sincerely hope there are!
Rachel: Which anime fansubs would you say modern fansubbers should aspire to?
Paul: Definitely Psycho KORps‘ mid 90s fansubs of Macross 7. Simple, easy to read font. Good, solid translation. No karaoke at all and just good, solid translation.
There are many more I could mention but the names escape me at the moment! Central Anime produced some good work in the 90s, too, as I recall. Cathedral Animation, too. All of the subs were simple, so your attention was always on the anime, where it belonged.
My first really bad experience with fansubs was HECTO and their fansubs of Rurouni Kenshin…which were almost entirely wrong and written in some kind of Chinese-English hybrid “grammar.”
Jimaku were another fine group who did excellent, simple, no-nonsense fansubs in the early 90s…though they may have fallen from grace now. I haven’t checked.
Rachel: How do you react to some fansubbers claims that fansubbing is about competition and fun?
Paul:I shall allow “N-Bomb” of the animesuki forum to answer that one for me:
“If you were doing it only as a hobby, you’d keep it to yourself. Bottom line. The fact that you’re releasing it is not some pity candy for the masses, it’s because you want to show off your skills or whatever to people and get praise and popularity for it.”
I don’t think it’s about fun at all. I think it’s about trying to, as they say these days “pwn the competition.”
Rachel: What would you like to see happen with fansubbers and their work?
Paul:I’d like them to bin the honorifics, translation notes, flashy, pointless karaoke effects etc and actually TRANSLATE for a change. Also, I want no more than two lines of song lyrics on an opening sequence. Seriously…What is the point of putting the kanji up there as well? That’s another thing which sickens me.
Basically, make it about the anime again, not the pointless competition.
Rachel: Going back to the irate fansubbing community, what would you like to say to them about the way fansubbing is headed?
Paul:Well, I shall quote the end of my video for this one, although you’d have to watch the Speed Grapher “ultimate fansub” mock-up I produced at the end of part 5 of the documentary first:
“Enjoy the following, because this is the way that fansubs are heading. And this is the kind of translation sandwich you’re going to be forced to feast on every day at the buffet of subtitle hell.”
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We’d like to thank Paul Johnson for giving us the opportunity to interview him!
So, how does his interview change your opinion of fansubs? Do you still feel modern fansubs are fantastic? Or has Paul inspired you to rethink your thoughts on fansubs?
Please share your thoughts on the interview in the comments section!
Leave the honorifics… it just don’t feel right without them … everyone who watches fansubs know what they mean … this isn’t meant for the general populous and never will be. You’re just saying your way is the right way and everyone else is wrong… hate to break it to you, but you are in the minority….and the majority rules here.
Actually he is in the majority here because everybody says “I’m right and you’re wrong”. Just because you are used to doing it one way doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the right or the best way.
Honorifics aren’t really necessary. I like them, but I can see how newer people aren’t necessarily getting them. And no, not everybody who watches fansubs knows them.
However, I also see professionals leaving them in and it gets irritating if you see a footnote to explain “-san” in the 22nd volume of a manga.
All it takes is one person to open their eyes to the “bullshit” of the world around them, and more will eventually see the light. I applaud Paul for this brazen opinion and for presenting it in an enlightening/creative way. While there are many points of contention I would like to see fansubbers seriously think about, the one issue I strongly agree with is “screen realestate”. As a graphic designer I feel many fansubs really have denigrated into visual shit storms of redundent eye-candy. They really need to stop forcing me to READ the show and actually WATCH it for a change.
I’m not talking right or wrong.. there is no “right” or “wrong” way to fansub something… That’s all just a matter of opinions… What I am saying the majority of fansub viewers are fine with the way things are … they are not crying out for change… the majority likes what it’s getting so that is the rule… the vocal few who complain are ignored because unlike the real world the rest of us just don’t care what you have to say…
@voodoomage, I disagree about the honorfics, strongly. However, I do agree that fansubs are no longer for the masses. The ones I’ve seen don’t look like the examples shown, but honestly, I don’t watch the bulk of my anime that way, not nearly. I personally think that fansubbers are going to keep on keeping on because this is what anime fans of fansubs want, note I didn’t say all anime fans. My concern is that this will overflow into DVDs, and unfortunately that’s already started.
@chaosof99, I will tear all my hair out (and I have a lot of hair) if this fansub style starts to seriously permeate professional distributors. I saw a fantastic example of this in the latest xxxHolic release: yukata (summer kimono). Why didn’t they just frick’n translate summer kimono and screw the yukata biz? Then Funi did an explanation on anko and ohagi! No! No! Anime subtitles are not the place for a culinary lesson!
@robin, since anime is a visual medium, you’d think fansubbers would want to be as unobtrusive as possible- you’d think. But, this what fans of fansubs want. If that’s what they want, I think that style of fansubbing should get a new label like Ultimate Fansubbing. And that’d be fine, since people would know it isn’t really translation, it’s super happy fun ultimate culture lesson. Because no one’s doing straight up translation when they have flashing lights and giant lettering scrolling over the action.
@ voodoomage: Right, if they don’t agree with your views, just ignore them. That will surely spark progress. Also, sentences are finished by a single period, not three.
Another point worth making: Fansubs NEVER were for the masses. When fansubbing began, anime fandom was very small and fansubbed anime was very hard to obtain. It only recently came to be that fansubs are widely and easily distributed through the internet and gained mass appeal. Only now, as shown in the documentary, they aren’t easily understandable for newcomers to this fandom.
It’s either ignore them or start a flame war… either way it’s two groups yelling at each other saying I’m right you’re wrong … who cares! Heh I like ending everything in ellipses… it’s just plain cool all the hip young cats are doing it these days…
1. It’s not possible to not use translation notes at all. It is true that some groups tend to over-use.
2. The examples shown in the video are on the extremely bad end of the spectrum. Inherent bias and self-selecting conclusion.
3. Older fansubs were bad in a different way. OtaKing believes that a good translator should replace Japanese puns and wordplays with equivalent English ones. That’s not what older fansubs did. Older fansubs simply ignored the puns and translated whatever was left. OtaKing is way too idealistic about “the good old days”. Tons of old fansubs don’t make sense despite being in perfectly fluent English.
4. The example of Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei shown is absolutely crap, I agree. But it is not possible to translate that show without resorting to onscreen typesetting. It’s asinine to argue that the English viewers should only get to see what the Japanese viewers get to see, because clearly the subtitles were not in the original version either. The correct solution for Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei is to fix the fonts used so that they don’t disrupt the visual style of the show.
5. Ultimately, for a show like Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei or Azumanga Daioh, there are only three options one can take. The first is to use translation notes. The second is to completely rewrite the scenarios and gags to work in English. The last is to just translate as much as you can and ignore anything that doesn’t work in English.
The first is what fansubs do now. Some better than others. The examples shown in the video being the crappy ones.
The second is what professional translators do, particularly for dubs. It requires actual literary talent on par with a real writer and it is a skill that people pay money for. It is absurd to demand this of fansubs, particularly since such adaptation would not sit well with fans who want the original Japanese humour.
The third is what older fansubs tend to do when they can’t find an English substitute. It is the only real solution for fansubbing without translation notes. It doesn’t sit well with me personally.
He does have some valid points about current fansubbing. True, you could do away without the karaoke+translation+kanji, but if it doesn’t affect the overall quality of the episode’s translation I say let them be. Also there’s nothing wrong with learning from your shows; of course there should be a limit to what to explain and what not (explain onigiri instead of sticking with rice balls). And I disagree with his opinion that there will always be a prefect English alternative (which doesn’t mean one shouldn’t break their brains looking for one). Each language has its own quirks and there will always be some cultural loss when translating from one language to another.
I do agree about the ponytail moe bit. They could’ve just written something like “I have a thing for ponytails” or “I like girls with ponytails”.
@chaosof99: I disagree; fansubs is all about distributing the show to more people and make it either more popular or more known. Whether it ends up being watched by more than the die hard anime fans is another story.
In my opinion, Japanese honorific sometime can be translated but sometime it should not be translated (better just remove it). One example is Shuffle shows when Nerine often uses -sama to address her lover, Rin. Should it be translated like “Master Rin” ?
Moreover, There is no such thing as free lunch. They earn naught from fansub.Why should we complain if they want some credit ? (of course not something bigger than the show name)
btw: you mentioned about manga translation and flip the page to make it read from left to right. Is it allowed to do because i think it may violate the copyrights also the picture will go wrong (leftside become rightside and vice versa) .
Pardon for my bad English
Translating honorifics appears to be trivial most of the time, but assuming that one strives for consistency, there will be situations where you have translated all the other honorifics in the episode but bump into one that is simply not possible to express in English.
You are then forced to either to use some weird expression that sounds unnatural in English, or be inconsistent and retain the honorifics for that one case.
Of course the “professional” way to do it is to simply drop all untranslatable honorifics and work on the tone of the sentence to correspond to the implied politeness. I personally don’t mind doing that when I am translating, but some viewers are asinine about staying true to the original expressions and others don’t really care, so usually the honorifics stay.
I have a strong feeling that when Kyon stated “I have a ponytail moe.” in the official DVDs, that was the same line that was translated as “Ponytails turn me on.” by a.f.k.’s fansub (but I’m to lazy to check). Since I’m pretty sure it is I’ll say score one for fansubs.
Watching both the documentary and reading this interview I really feel that he doesn’t have a good enough grasp of current fansubs to be pontificating about them and he has a vested interest to bad-talk fansubs – they do for free what he gets paid for.
It doesn’t change my view because my view on fansubs is not strong. They’re okay, they’re not professional, they’re prone to mistakes, but at least I don’t have to wait 2+ years to watch something.
I still think that he picked the worst of the worst. And I own DVDs where the professionals are guilty of the same stuff. I think he’s looking at the entire thing through rose-tinted glasses.
I do agree with Paul on several items, and I disagree with him on others. Being a anime fan for going on 30+ years, and having lived in a Asian country, I have seen a lot of translation sins by both amateurs and professionals alike.
But, first of all I’d like to say that most fansub groups are made up of fans first, and they are not professional translators, so I can forgive them for leaving in their favorite Japanese words. I lived in Korea for 2 years and learned the language from my Korean girlfriend by total immersion, and if anyone thinks that the native speakers speak anything like the way they are portrayed in television in movies it’s almost laughable, it’s like how some foreigners are shocked to learn that all Americans don’t live and act like the characters they see in Baywatch or Friends
I have to agree with Paul about early fansubs, to the early groups fansubs were a labor of love and costly, and not a speed contest. I once was involved with a group about 25 years ago and we had get the Lazerdisk source material from Japan, then our translator, one of our friends that had lived and attended school in Japan for over ten years would do the translation, and then we would argue and discuss then most natural way the lines could be translated so a viewer “with no Japanese language/cultural experience” could fully understand the story. Then we would set the subtitles to the source material using a gen-lock device and produce a master copy, and these fansubs would be premiered at a large meeting or at a convention, no second chances or revision #4, it had to be right or everybody knew it was messed up.
But today things are different, I think that most fansubs are made by fans for fans, and not as a introduction to a new form of media. They leave the honorifics in place assuming that the viewer knows something about the principles of TPO/PL (time, place, occasion/and politeness levels) of the Japanese language system.
After I learned the Korean language (Hangugeo) fairly well I would never leave a Korean word in my translations I was doing for my friends, that would assume that they knew what that word meant (and in the army we have a saying about the word assume, when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me). In translations a Sensei should be referred to as a teacher in English and given the appropriate respect levels, and when I greet my sister I would never say, and I don’t know anyone who would ever say “nice to see you Mary-onee-chan” I would say “nice to see you sis, or something like that”.
I think that it’s a cop-out when translators say that they have to leave in the honorifics or lack therefor of the honorifics to be able to tell us/explain to us the type of relationship that the anime characters have with each-other, we all know that in American/Western society we speak in subtle and different ways to our friends, acquaintances, girlfriends, and lovers. I know that it’s tough to be able to properly translate this in a believable and natural sounding way, but that’s the role you’ve taken, on so spend some time speaking the lines out loud and think/judge if they sound realistic or sound laughable instead of worrying if they are a literal/word for word translation.
All I have to say is, I like fansubs, and, call me a weeabo, but I like the literal translations and honorifics and notes, and would much rather see those than the personal interpretation of a translator who is rewriting a scene to fit in English better.
This guy is, at his core, just a self promoting troll. He makes some good points but his awful attitude just discredit him. Saying things like calling honorifics a “cancer” and discrediting all fansubs and made my fanboys living in their parents basement who are in constant competition to get translated Anime out as fast as possible. Some groups, like Shonen Subs take a few days of careful translation before releasing episodes.
If he had a better disposition I would take him seriously, but he has the disposition of a person who has too much experience trolling to be anything other than a biased asshole.
Leaving all the professionalism behind fansubbing IS for those who want it. Who cares if subbers are egoistic bastarts, if they make decent enough work on it. Besides I disagree some points of translating the meaning not the words. Sometimes I even feel horrified to read the subtitles that professionals have made. It feels like they are not translating the text to make the feeling that Jonshon spoke about. They are in my eyes trying to morpf anime to western by spoiling the feeling. So basically I find Jonhson wrong about making anime more watchable with “proper” english translation.
To the points what is wrong and right fansubbing is kinda individualistic matter. On personal aspect I find next things right: Karaoke songs in opening and closing; I find slipping the text to upper and lower sides disturbing but still I like to sing if I like the song. Slightly flashy text (not too big); The professional work I’ve seen uses eye breaking fonts more than they want to admit (pixels…). Leaving some words not translated; I couldn’t imagine Himura Kenshin without “oro!” or some other charesters without their their favorite sayings. I even like the overleft -niisan -san -sama… endings. Even though I admit that Jonhson is right that anime is not japanese language course to wannabe otaku’s.
Next the things I think is wrong: plagiating other fansub groups; that’s simply but lame, extended subbing groups name commercialing; make good subs that gives you “name” not the size of the font you use in it.
Well right now I can’t think anymore of those. But in the end I gotta say: Somebody’s gotta do the fansubbing.
Can’t we reach a happy medium? Cut the shiny-shiny sing alongs, excessivly pointless japanese terms, and explanations. The honorifics are ok. It doesn’t take too long to get used to them.
Besides. The wider anime-watching audience watches in dubbed anyway. And they don’t actually CARE about whether or not it’s culturally accurate. It’s the otaku who obsess, and I’m guessing that they AREN’T the new fans.
I’m an otaku-ish, but lets not get picky eh? I just wanna watch the show. Well translated. That’s all I ask for.
Mr. Johnson does make a few good points and it does seem as if many fansubbers overuse notes and original words. And the notes are completely useless when there’s no time to read them. But I don’t think it would ever get as bad as his final example.
Many times fansubbers make amateur mistakes and that’s fine as long as they don’t then try to justify them with excuses. I think it’s easy enough to eliminate -san and replace mother, father, brother and sister. I also agree that many objects should be replaced unless they’re common enough to be recognized like sake. Translations are about understanding. And in NA teachers are often referred to as mister, misses or miss such as “Mr. Johnson” or even “Professor Johnson” so it’s sufficent to just translate that way and the meaning would come across.
Fansubbers should try as hard as possible to keep all the translations at the bottom so that one doesn’t have to look all over the screen. What’s wrong with using brackets () so that one could write “Shinigami (Death God)” or “Shinigami (similar to a Grim Reaper)” instead of having to fill the top with an extra note that breaks from the reading. As long as the bracketed note is used the first time in every fansub, one can generally follow what’s going on.
But I think it’s understood that Japanese signs don’t have English translations on them. And remember that the Japanese would be able to read the original words so the translations on the signs only helps to enjoy the translation the way a Japanese person would.
Wow, you choose leaving “moe” in the DVD as an example of a fansub-like translation? Have you seen the excellent work a.f.k. did on Haruhi? For one, they didn’t leave it as “moe”, they translated it!
You continue to cherrypick your examples, man.
I’m gonna paste my response to you from AnimeSuki cause I’m not sure you ever read it.
“OK, now I have a moment to pen a proper response.
I have to be honest, I am most definitely impressed by your academic background and your obvious dedication to the art of J/E translation. Your unbridled passion is quite commendable as well. I am sure you’ve worked on some great translations (I may have even seen some of your work, Phantom Hourglass was great!).
The CV you have up online, of course, didn’t document any of that, so forgive me for not knowing such information. I also realize you’ve only had 2 years out of college to build your portfolio.
You do seem to attempt to exude an aura of a seasoned professional J/E translator and I was just making the point that, according to the information publicly available, I do know quite a few people who moonlight as fansubbers who have more extensive professional careers.
The issue of “target audience” is nary raised in your quite well-produced documentary. I’ve completed translations for professional publication here in the US and the UK. In those, I dropped all honorifics and maintained a typeset style that would undoubtedly be to your liking.
I also maintain honorifics in my fansub scripts and have been known, on occasion, to keep the original Japanese name order. (BTW, most published/professional foreigners in Japan maintain their western name order in Katakana so I’m not sure why you feel you need to reverse it, but I digress.) If the subject matter calls for it, I will leave in a -sama in the script because fansub viewers, by and large, want that sort of treatment. The cherry-picked examples of “YOSHA!” and “Nakama” in your documentary are extreme and would not be considered “protocol” by most fansub translators, but again, I digress.
There are times when -sama should be translated as “Lord” or what have you. You’d better believe we didn’t maintain honorifics in the scripts for Rose of Versailles, for example. But is calling the protagonist “Kasuga-kun” in KOR really going to harm anyone? I think our target audience for that is a group of folks who’d prefer the honorifics maintained.
I also advocate keeping a translation that maintains the exact intent, feeling, and meaning of the Japanese line without sacrificing any of the “native flow” in English. If a native (in my case, American) speaker wouldn’t say something, I don’t want it in my scripts. Some fansubs I completed in the last few weeks used such phrasings as “Pearls before swine,” “Let’s blow this popsicle stand,” and “More than one way to skin a cat.” Do you think those are literal translations from Japanese? I don’t think so. I am with you on those points.
That being said, you are choosing examples from admitted amateur hobbyists. I wouldn’t expect them to be the next Donald Keene!
Let’s get back to the issue of target audiences. There is a reason there is an English wikipedia and a “simple english” wikipedia. No matter what form of communication one partakes in, you must always curtail it to your audience. You are making assumptions about the fansub scene that I am not sure you are qualified to make.
In regards to the ideas of ridiculous karaoke and exploding text effects for One Piece attack names… That’s just a way for an amateur hobbyist to have some fun with scripting languages, Adobe Premiere/After Effects, etc. Nothing more, nothing less. Same thing goes for signs that seamlessly blend into the background. It’s a person’s hobby to see what they can come up with. If you were entrenched into the scene like the folks producing said effects are, you’d understand.
I never meant to attack you personally but you opened it up yourself with your admitted flame bait documentary! You even alluded to your “true identity” at the very end of it and “let the flames begin” or what have you. You knew what you were getting yourself into ^^;
As stated before, I admire your dedication to the craft and would be honored to have you evaluate my scripts, but do keep in mind the target audience and the motivations behind the choices made for the final product. Also keep in mind that these are by definition free amateur works that are never intended for professional critiques or comparison. I’ve been known to fudge a translation here or there, or do a lazy job typesetting something, if time or motivation or whatever doesn’t allow me the chance to really fine-tune it. I don’t see anything wrong with it. It’s a fansub, not a replacement for a professional release, and if it has a few mistakes in it, it’s not the end of the world! We might get some flames in our irc channel, but after more than 7 years of digitally fansubbing, I think I’ve heard it all
So don’t take anything said personally, but please understand why so many of us take offense with what you have to say. You knew you were entering this realm and opening yourself up to the flames that would inevitably occur, so anything stated in your documentary is 100% open for criticism. (Yes, like the trite comment about the aforementioned “dumbness” of claiming Substation Alpha was required software to create a sub or the “30 minute” comment).
I hope that clears the air. I understand where you are coming from, but ignoring the motivations of the people creating the fansubs (or rather, oversimplifying it to make it merely about “pwning those fags”) and the intended target audience gives it such an air of bias that it becomes almost humorous.
Anyway, I would still like you to let me know how the shows I referred you to compare to the examples you choose in the video.
BTW, on a side note, using examples of shows released in just the last few years by a very modern fansub group (Anime-Classic “The Enemy is the Pirates” and Guardress) as examples of VHS subs (and not even getting the aspect ratio correct) was pretty weak. You could have dug up some more VHS tapes to prove your point. You basically negated your argument with those examples and the folks in Anime-Classic were not happy about it.
-Tofu
__________________
The only MMORPG I play is fansubbing. “
Cross posted from a related blog:
“But of course, there are exceptions to the rule. a.f.k., for example, does a very good job at dynamic translation. The Haruhi Suzumiya sub is almost devoid of explanatory notes; in the last chapter, when Kyon says “I have a pigtail moe”, they translated it as “Pigtails turn me on”; in the Lucky Star sub, when Konata says “Tsundere girls wear pigtails”, they translated it as “You oughta have pigtails if you’re bipolar”.”
The reason OtaKing got such negativity from forums like AnimeSuki is because he posted snark comments filled with bias, pride, prejudice and ignorance. There’s a reason why people outed him as a troll, and I’d like to welcome you all to read the thread in question. Not expecting you’ll understand much but, eh…
There is quite a lot of things that are very true, in Otaking’s ideas, but in the end, he make the same mistakes as the “bad fansubs” : going too far. Just in the opposite direction.
“Bad fansubs” put too much flashy, translation note or japanese terms. It’s half a real translation. OK, that’s true, but first, it’s not the average fansubs. And second, why should we make the opposite with absolute seamless (boring) translation ?
His own vision of translation (as simple, fluid and unjapanese as possible), it’s not good translation. It’s levelling down everything. People can understand what an onigiri is. Learning honorifics is quite easy. Reading from right to left also. Introduction of japanese terms in english, french, spanih, or whatever your language is, is not a bad thing. It’s a normal process with lot of historic precedents.
Don’t think people are dumb, don’t let them becoming or staying dumb. Just let them learn a lot of languages and mix them…
It is clear the interviewer is just as biased as the interviewee. This is as big a mockery as his “documentary”. I have seen more balanced videos on fox news. He preaches about full translations yet calls himself “ota” king. That is very against your philosophie on translation.
You strike me as a person that only wants things his way, and if they do not go your way you whine about it. Just because some one uses honorifics does not make them wrong. It is a matter of opinion. You are forcing your opinion on others and insulting those that don’t kiss your ass in agreement.
@KingRanger, you say “It is clear the interviewer is just as biased as the interviewee. This is as big a mockery as his “documentary”. How is it “clear”? I ask why these unpaid fansubbers should abide by the rules because they’re not getting paid. How is that biased? I ask what rules they should abide by and why. How is that leaning one way or the next? If anything, I’m asking why Paul feels these people should change when they’re doing it as a hobby. How is that being biased against fansubbers? Although I do have an opinion, I pretty much kept it out of the interview itself. Pick one question you feel is in favor of the interviewee. One question.
I used so subtitle back in the day and translate for many old school subbers. But as anime has gotten attention in the late 90s to 2000, there was no need for me to sub anymore. However, I did translate for some subbers. I am now in the video industry, but I do indulge in anime now and then.
Paul is right on point when it comes to the translations of digisubs. As a person of Japanese descent, I find it hilarious that some of these people think that we speak that way. I digress…
Regarding the old school subber’s ethics, yes it’s true that they had respect for the creators, but this has been said many times on many different forums, especially animenewsnetwork & animeondvd. Moreover, it also has been said there is 0 respect for creators. Until anime companies make a serious effort by taking legal action that will most likely cure the since of entitlement mindset that these people are suffering from.
It is now at the point that any and everything is being subbed; regardless if it already has English subtitles, licensed and available it doesn’t matter. Being that media is free and abundant for anyone to do whatever they want; why would anyone expect to have good or even average translations? Or have the same fansub code of ethics mentality? I’m not surprised that you got a negative reaction, especially on digisub forums such as animesuki or any other amateur sub forums. The majority of these people do not support the anime they subtitle, download or upload. My experience is that those who support the industry will LISTEN to both arguments and form an opinion without resorting to infantile behavior.
well, I agree with what he said.
Modern Day subs are meant for Modern day kids
Its like a circle heres what happen:
Early Fansuber copied the way Professional Translator of Movies; It was their Only Guide.
With time, New Fansubber groups came. As each group came, they starter coping each other.
One group copied another, and another copied that group.
So what do you get? Shitwork…………..
which is why modern day fansuber subs all look the same.
They copied each other and each other
the circle goes on.
We need to Break that circle